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[furryclan]  |  Single player and online games  |  SWAT3  |  Topic: Finally!!!!! « previous next »
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Author Topic: Finally!!!!!  (Read 25830 times)
[_PhoeniX_]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #135 on: 2010-10-09 01:00:59 »

Every country in the civilized world spends more on social programs than defense. So saying that we do too isn't that big of a shocker.

And really, I'm just posting graphs for fun since you started it. I had no real point with them.

As far as socialism not working... yeah. Okay. You're absolutely right. It's a failed system. (Except for that whole China being the second biggest economy in the world and the biggest threat to American economic might in 20 years thing). After you do some research about what socialism actually IS, get back to me with more than the GM example of how America is in danger of becoming China because of our Muslim president. (And really, why ANYONE would want ANY part of GM is a mystery to me... and thank God the government is doing everything it can to get rid of those shares)

But look at all those third world welfare states like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark. *shudders* I'm glad we don't have to live in those hellholes!!!

And I'm not quite sure that you understand percentages, Ghostrider. "They have smaller GDPs, so it's not that impressive." Ah... because if I get taxed $50,000 dollars on $1,000,000, and you get taxed $10,000 on $50,000, you aren't more negatively financially impacted than I am, because you only paid 10k instead of the whopping 50k I paid. Nevermind the fact that I paid 5% of my income while you paid 20% of yours. I spent more. No wonder you're a Republican.
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[12:46] [DT], Drax: I enjoy hooking my little sister up with guys from across the country
[_PhoeniX_]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #136 on: 2010-10-09 01:05:24 »

If your country spent even a tiny amount normally set aside for your war machine on social programs and education in Detroit you would see improvement slowly over time.   The typical Conservative way of dealing with issues is police and jail time rather than investing in people.  There will always be a certain percentage of the population that don't want to live or work in a traditional way.

I agree whole heartedly with SJ on this issue.

I think Conservatives are retarded. Why the hell are we jailing our criminals? They say 10% of the population is responsible for 80% of the crime. I think I know a way to decrease crime by 80%... and I think we can get a helluva bulk discount on ammo if we say we're gonna off the 30 million people causing the problems. At .25 cents a round, that's 7.5 million spent to decrease crime by 80%. Thank you SJ. You saved us BILLIONS on law enforcement.
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[12:46] [DT], Drax: I enjoy hooking my little sister up with guys from across the country
[_PhoeniX_]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #137 on: 2010-10-09 01:07:12 »

Holy shit! Have you seen how much your taxes are going to go up if that rat bastard Obama has his way and let's Bush's tax cuts expire?! It'll DESTROY our fucking economy at a time where we can't afford to raise taxes on businesses!



Oh... you mean my taxes won't be affected at all? And the other people who will be affected will face an increase of 3%? And if we extend them, it will add 3.7 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years? And if they extend the tax cuts, 31 cents of every dollar that goes towards tax cuts will go towards the economic recovery? Whereas every 1 dollar spent on roads yields $1.59?

Fuck roads. I wanna make sure that 70% of my money doesn't actually help anything! And you know what? FUCK HEALTH CARE! It's going to add 455 billion to the deficit over the next decade. We can't afford that at a time when we're needlessly extending tax cuts that are costing us 3.7 trillion!
« Last Edit: 2010-10-09 01:16:00 by [_PhoeniX_] » Logged

[12:46] [DT], Drax: I enjoy hooking my little sister up with guys from across the country
[NorthStar]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #138 on: 2010-10-09 03:54:46 »

I didn't think you were retarded enough to argue for the government taking your money away... you don't care because you don't invest in the stock market, and if you would've researched a little more you'd know that capital gains taxes are what will increase the most when the cuts expire. Problem is, investors are the people who drive the economy, and I don't mean government investments in roads. But instead of taking the approach of government not spending so much of our money, you'd rather they just tax us more and keeping on giving it to Loqueesha from It's So Cold in the D who doesn't have a fucking clue how to invest in anything but weed and crack. Because of course Loqueesha and the government can use that money more wisely than you can.

And where the fuck are you getting your numbers on "every $1 spent on roads yields $1.59"? If infrastructure investment was really the magic economic bullet you're making it out to be, we'd never have a recession. Hell, for a 59% return, sign me up for some stock in roads!
« Last Edit: 2010-10-09 04:06:25 by [NorthStar] » Logged
[_PhoeniX_]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #139 on: 2010-10-09 06:48:22 »

I didn't think you were retarded enough to argue for the government taking your money away... you don't care because you don't invest in the stock market, and if you would've researched a little more you'd know that capital gains taxes are what will increase the most when the cuts expire. Problem is, investors are the people who drive the economy, and I don't mean government investments in roads. But instead of taking the approach of government not spending so much of our money, you'd rather they just tax us more and keeping on giving it to Loqueesha from It's So Cold in the D who doesn't have a fucking clue how to invest in anything but weed and crack. Because of course Loqueesha and the government can use that money more wisely than you can.

And where the fuck are you getting your numbers on "every $1 spent on roads yields $1.59"? If infrastructure investment was really the magic economic bullet you're making it out to be, we'd never have a recession. Hell, for a 59% return, sign me up for some stock in roads!

Nobody likes taxes. Nobody's saying "Oh gee, I want the government to spend my money for me." But the fucking reality is that in order to get what we want FROM government, it costs money. I DO invest in the stock market. In fact, my portfolio has increased 30% since Obama was sworn in. Stupid liberals and their fail economic policies... I hate it when they give me more money. Currently I have my money divided evenly between Non-US equities, Mid Caps, and Small Caps. And I did "do a little research." Capital gains taxes will go from 15% to 20%. So yes. You're correct. They go up more than other taxes. 5% compared to 3%. Unless you're referring to dividends, which will be once again be treated like regular income, so taxed at whatever rate is assessed for your tax bracket, instead of the 15% it was taxed at. So you're right, dividends will substantially increase from 15% to most likely 39.6%, which is the top income bracket, which is where most of the people making any fucking money off of dividends are likely to be. So since all of us middle class people are making vast fortunes off of dividends, we're totally fucked.

Supply side economics is fail. It decides "Oh... human nature... yeah... that doesn't exist." Yes... if we give people with lots of money MORE money, then they will subsequently put that money into things that will produce more money for everyone else. There's no chance that they will pocket it and find some way of producing more without having to increase spending. As a percentage of income, people with less money spend more. Give those people money, and they will spend it. Why do you think cash for clunkers was such a big deal?

And then there's the tax shelter argument, which I feel is shaky, but has a valid point. The biggest tax shelter businesses have is... well... their business. They can write off business expenses to prevent the government from taking a larger portion of their profits. So if they invest more in their business, they get less taken out of their paycheck when tax time rolls around, since they have effectively dropped themselves into a lower tax bracket.

And nobody said I'd prefer that they keep giving my money away to anyone, much less ghetto trash. In fact, if I got to CHOOSE where my tax money went, it'd go to shore up social security and invest in infrastructure. But that's just me. You can say "Fuck old people" all you want, but I actually think that they have a right to live. Feel free to get rid of social security and medicare and oops.... I guess they're shit out of luck. Should have had some sort of retirement investment account, despite the fact that when you were actually part of the work force 40 or 50 years ago, you were told not to worry about it, that social security would be able to provide for you.

I don't know if you noticed that I left out military spending. I did. Do I think we need a strong military? Absolutely. Do I want to pay for it? No. Someone else can. So we'll pretend my tax dollars go towards what I want, and your tax dollars go towards what you want. That way we'll pretend like we're not all in this together. And BTW... my memory fails me... which party started 2 wars and didn't have some sort of payment plan for 'em? Turns out wars are expensive. They have to be paid for. The government knew this in the 40's. Rationing, astronomical tax rates, and bond drives. How do we pay for these wars? Oh... that's right... tax cuts. Because I know if I go out and spend more, but make less money, I know I can do it forever with no repercussions. 'Cause that's the way it works in real life.

Ya know... the conservative argument on these issues is always the same, and it's always fail. "You can't burden the producers, or else we'll all be screwed. Leave them alone and everything will turn out okay." Meanwhile, American automakers have to get bailed out because they fail at making good business decisions. Foreign car makers are in much better shape because they DON'T make stupid decisions. And you HAVE to bail out the American car companies, because if you don't you literally have MILLIONS of people directly and indirectly employed by the auto industry that are now unemployed simultaneously. Then when there was an attempt to impose stricter environmental regulation on the automakers, of course Republicans started bitching and moaning and throwing a fit saying it was unfair to the producers and would harm the economy and it was unrealistic to expect automakers to be able to improve their vehicles, and even if they did, they would cost more and hurt the consumers. Now you have cars that are getting double the gas mileage they were getting, and relatively cheap. Or going back to the late 80's early 90's when it was absolute nonsense to impose strict environmental regulations on industry... it would just destroy their ability to be competitive, it'd destroy the economy... etc etc etc. Yeah... turns out clean air and clean water are kinda nice to have... and the acid rain issues that existed then don't exist now.

It's mostly to the point now where I may not agree with everything the Democrats say, but I'm sick of listening to Republicans yelling that the sky is falling every time someone suggests government intervention in the economy... because they've been wrong EVERY FUCKING TIME. Every time they say "OMG YOU'RE RAISING TAXES NOOOOOOESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!" the economy goes up. Then they win the majority, cut taxes, and the economy tanks. The period of greatest growth in this country existed after WWII. When WWII ended, the tax rate was 93%. During the 60's it stayed at 90% until 66 or 67 when it came down to 70%. It stayed that way until Reagan dropped it to 50%. Today it's around 35%. So for 3 decades you have very high tax rates... and huge growth. Isn't that the exact opposite of what Republicans say will happen? Clinton raised taxes from 29% to 38%, economy booms. Bush cuts taxes, economy tanks. Anyone care to guess if taxes were high or low during the Great Depression? Oh... 25%. Hell... George HW Bush lowered taxes... what happened? He had to raise them again when the economy stalled.

Supply side economics doesn't make sense. Maybe if we tried to invest in infrastructure, it'd make a difference. But roads aren't sexy. There's nothing to be gained politically from saying "We need to invest in bridges, roads, power lines, and mass transportation." But "tax cuts" is a phrase that's worth a million votes every time. I don't know if you remember, but last time we had a budget surplus (thank you, William Jefferson Clinton) and a bitchin' economy, the Republicans gained power and instead of paying down the national debt (which had ticked backwards under Clinton's stewardship) like those good for nothing America hating liberals wanted, they said "TAX CUTS!!!!!!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!" Oh... and then there was that 8 years of failed economic policies thing after that. But you're right... Republicans totally are right about the economy. They're who I want spending my tax dollars.
« Last Edit: 2010-10-09 06:58:54 by [_PhoeniX_] » Logged

[12:46] [DT], Drax: I enjoy hooking my little sister up with guys from across the country
[NorthStar]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #140 on: 2010-10-09 16:50:06 »

I don't know where you're getting your numbers on the tax rate increases, but they are way low. You're only taking into account increases in the rate itself, when there are hidden rate increases because of greater restrictions on deductions and exemptions. Part of the new health care plan is also an increased tax on investment income. Not sure WTF that has to do with health care, but then again, neither does a lot of shit that's in that massive clusterfuck of a bill that had to be passed "so we could find out what's in it." I'm still waiting on my healthcare to be improved from it. Oh, that's right, it's only meant to improve healthcare for Loqueesha.

Anyway, you already expressed the pointlessness of this debate. You've been living in Cali so long that you're a dyed-in-the-wool lib. You're using their exact argument of "tax cuts are costing the government money." No, it's not the government's money to begin with. It's just a very fundamental disagreement on economics and how government should be run. The Dems are set to be crushed next month, so we probably won't find out whether you're right. That's fine with me though, because God help us if you're wrong and something doesn't change.
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #141 on: 2010-10-09 19:28:07 »

WOW.  Phoenix, I just don't know how you could really believe all that shit is actually correct.  I'd love to know where you are getting your info because it's wrong.  I started off thinking I would refute this point by point, but you are so far off the deep end, that's probably pointless.

So, read this article and see that when Reagan lowered the taxes, it set off a 25 year long boom in the economy.

Also, check out this video shared by Northstar of Obama being called out by Chris Wallace and Hillary laughing at him.

And that jab about the Republicans starting two wars without figuring out how to pay for them is pretty silly.  Being attacked is a good reason to go overseas and kill people.  And all the wars of the 20th century were begun under Democratic presidents except the first Gulf War, which took two weeks.  It matters not who is in power when war starts.  War is indiscriminate.
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #142 on: 2010-10-09 21:32:07 »

Except when it's optional, see Iraq.   And Bush was a Democrat?   Wow, I never knew.
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[NorthStar]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #143 on: 2010-10-09 21:58:20 »

And Bush was a Democrat?   Wow, I never knew.

wars of the 20th century
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #144 on: 2010-10-09 21:59:40 »

Oh right, so that war is free.
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[GhostRider]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #145 on: 2010-10-10 00:25:53 »

Oh right, so that war is free.

No, that's my point.  Nobody figures out how to pay for them before going into it.  It's war.  It's not a planned event.

"OK everyone.  Next fiscal quarter, we're going to bomb the shit out of Iran.  How much is that going to cost us?  Jenkins!  Get on that, will ya?  We need a way to pay for this shit before we jump off."
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #146 on: 2010-10-10 01:13:19 »

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[_PhoeniX_]
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #147 on: 2010-10-10 08:53:09 »

No, that's my point.  Nobody figures out how to pay for them before going into it.  It's war.  It's not a planned event.

"OK everyone.  Next fiscal quarter, we're going to bomb the shit out of Iran.  How much is that going to cost us?  Jenkins!  Get on that, will ya?  We need a way to pay for this shit before we jump off."

So erm... how long was WWII? How high was the tax rate? Was there rationing? Were there bond drives? Did they know how much it was costing them?

And umm... how long have we been in Afghanistan and Iraq? But we have no idea how much it costs us.

Also feel free to read http://www.politicususa.com/en/reagan-bush-tax-cuts. If Reagan's own policy advisors don't think Reagan would extend the tax cuts, WTF are the rest of you thinking? He's your fucking God/Mao/Buddah.

And as Don stated... we got attacked by dudes in ONE country. We CHOSE to go to war in another.
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #148 on: 2010-10-10 08:54:46 »

And I'm getting my numbers from the fucking Congressional Budget Office. You know. The nonpartisan office that actually analyzes the numbers. Turns out their projections are usually closest to what reality bears out, but no one ever listens to them. Political catchphrases are more important than economic realities.
« Last Edit: 2010-10-10 19:42:04 by [_PhoeniX_] » Logged

[12:46] [DT], Drax: I enjoy hooking my little sister up with guys from across the country
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Re: Finally!!!!!
« Reply #149 on: 2010-10-10 19:46:22 »

So, read this article and see that when Reagan lowered the taxes, it set off a 25 year long boom in the economy.

Yes. Except for the years that the economy stalled during HW's presidency.

But luckily Reagan's policies powered through that and were single handedly responsible for the economy when Clinton took over.

And Reagan cut taxes to 50%. He didn't say "Let's continue cutting taxes indefinitely. What could possibly go wrong?"
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